Mastering the Art of Relational Real Estate with Coach Jacki Semerau Tait

Speaker 1: 0:04

Welcome to Side Hustle City and thanks for joining us. Our goal is to help you connect to real people who found success turning their side hustle into a main hustle, and we hope you can too. I'm Adam Kaler. I'm joined by Kyle Stevie, my co-host. Let's get started. All right? Welcome back everybody to the Side Hustle City podcast. Kyle Stevie is joining us via the phone from Northern Kentucky University's parking lot today. I'm in the podcast studio. Jackie is joining us. Jackie Summerow Tate, the maven of real estate, the queen of relational real estate, is actually the title, but thanks for joining us, jackie. Great to have you.

Speaker 2: 0:45

It's so good to be here. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 0:47

Yeah, and we're talking about one of me and Kyle's favorite subjects real estate, making money at real estate guys. And Jackie is also. She's a top one percent realtor. So we got the best of the best on the show today and a professional speaker, not to mention a consultant to real estate agents, a consultant to people who want to invest in real estate. I mean, you do it all, jackie.

Speaker 2: 1:12

I know it's crazy. My daughter goes how do you fit all of this into your day? And I'm like I don't know, I don't think about it. So it just seems to all work. And I find that people who are in the service industry, especially if you, if you wait tables, you're, you have the chance to be really great at real estate. If you're a teacher, you have a chance of being really great at real estate because naturally you have to be a people person and care about others. That's number number one.

Speaker 2: 1:39

And then number two is if you have that education standpoint, where you need to be constantly educating your clients and when you can hold their hand, guide them along, I find that those are two professions that do really well when they transition into real estate.

Speaker 1: 1:53

Yeah, what were you doing before real estate? Were you in any of those kinds of things, or did you ever serve or work at a restaurant or any of that kind of stuff?

Speaker 2: 2:00

Yeah, so before I got into real estate I was in sales and marketing, and for hotels specifically. But, before that, yeah, I mean, my first real professional out of the box job was waiting tables and I loved it. In fact I joke around, I'm like that's my retirement plan when I'm all set and done in order. You know, some people play golf, some people travel. I probably do a couple of days a week waiting tables because I loved it.

Speaker 1: 2:29

Wow, ok, yeah, I mean it's. It's very high stress, but you meet a ton of people. I noticed this too when I went to a performing arts school in Cincinnati here, and a lot of people that I went to school with, or you know, I look at this, I mean they're on Broadway, that that live performance of people that I went to school with. Or you know, I look at this, I mean they're on Broadway, that that live performance of rent. That happened a couple of years ago. A buddy of mine from high school was in that. And you see, these people what they do is is they'll leave and they'll go to, you know, juilliard, or they'll go to one of these you know an art school in New York or in LA or Chicago to go to second city and they'll wait tables. That's how they meet people, that's how they, that's how they find people and they go wherever you know the agents go and wherever the producers go, and that's how, that's how they get found a lot of times.

Speaker 2: 3:14

Yeah, it's true, there's a. There's a lot to be said for it. I used to say I think everybody should be required to wait tables for at least six months. I think everybody should be required to be in that service industry and understand what someone goes through to give you a successful experience when you are dining out and just kind of know all of that, you learn a lot of time management and stress management and all of that type of thing. So I'm a firm believer in it.

Speaker 1: 3:45

Well, real estate's always been that side hustle. Before the term side hustle really came out, it was, I think, a great way for people to transition from a career. Or if you were the stay at home person in your relationship, you know, it was a good way for you to maybe make some side income, you know, from from doing real estate while you're taking care of the home. And it was just something that people did to make a little extra money If they had a big network. My uncle got into it because he was doing Amway before he started real estate. He built up a really big network from just doing Amway and then eventually he transitioned out of Amway, like so many other people did, and went into real estate and he did really really well at it. And then eventually he transitioned out of Amway, like so many other people did, and went into real estate and he did really really well at it and to this day he does really really well at it.

Speaker 2: 4:31

I think, well, that's funny because that's how I started. I mean, I 100% started real estate as a side hustle. I was 26 when I first got licensed and my ex-husband and I I mean, he was my husband at the time but we were starting to think about buying our first investment property and so we started working with an agent who, honestly, I just I don't think she understood what we were looking for. I don't think she really worked with investors and we were first time investors, so we didn't know what we didn't know. And so we just kind of looked at each other and I said, listen, why don't I go to real estate school? I'll get my license, I'll represent our interests and that way we can take that commission and put it towards. We wanted to do fix and flip before. Fix and flip was, you know, on every HGTV channel.

Speaker 1: 5:20

Everybody thinks they can do it. Everybody thinks they can do it. It's so many surprises.

Speaker 2: 5:26

Well, and it's so funny because the reason we even decided to do that is because we bought a for sale by owner house that needed everything and we went in and we did most of the work ourselves and we had a blast doing it. The house looked great and we thought, oh well, what if we did this on an investment property? But again, I mean, we don't know what we don't know. So, yeah, that's what got me into real estate in the first place.

Speaker 1: 5:53

And it's good to know somebody who's handy if you're going to get into that business. But there's a ton of different ways you can approach real estate. As a side hustle, it can be as an agent, it can be as a fix and flip person, you could be a wholesaler. You could be an investor that's looking for multifamily and doing syndications. I mean there's so many different things. You could be a buy and hold person that does STRs, which is the thing now, right, and we talked a little bit about that before the show but there's a lot of different ways you can approach Really. I mean you could be a mortgage broker. You could be an agent and a mortgage broker, sell insurance and be a be a notary at the same time Like you could do all that stuff right.

Speaker 2: 6:35

You can. I don't recommend doing all those things at the same time.

Speaker 3: 6:39

It'd be, a lot of work.

Speaker 2: 6:40

Yeah, you may turn. You know you're going to have to drink heavily at the end of the day, but or just a lot of, just a lot of work.

Speaker 1: 6:45

Yeah, you may turn, you know you're you're gonna have to drink heavily at the end of the day, but or just a lot of coffee, just a lot of coffee.

Speaker 2: 6:48

Yeah, I mean, there's so many different options. I think one of my, one of my biggest things, is that if you're looking for any kind of a side hustle, like we were talking about before we got started, real estate is one of the only ways that you can get in and get started and make a really great return. And not only are you making a return depending on if you're doing a short-term rental, midterm, long-term, what the case may be but not only are you getting a return, but the longer you hold that, typically you are going to realize an upside on the value of your asset as well. You know, obviously, timing is everything there and real estate is very cyclical. So you kind of have to know what you're doing and you have to have a good exit strategy. But if you can buy low, sell high, you know even all of the money that you're going to make as your income, your monthly income. You know it's just icing on the cake when you turn around and sell it.

Speaker 1: 7:48

Oh yeah, and just in real estate in general, like if you wanted to be an agent. I remember when we were doing our, our, our software company, we had to sell to the 10 percent Right. We were trying to get people off the fax machine and onto digital signatures. So everybody back then, 2007, 2008, 2009, everybody was faxing. I mean, you remember those days and then you'd have to run to the office to go get the fax.

Speaker 1: 8:13

The realtor would call you and say I faxed this to you and you would go there and get the piece of paper and it would look like crap and then you'd have to write it up, take it to. Well, you'd have to take it to say your seller, get them to mark it up, send it back, do that three or four times and this paper would look like a mess. Right, the industry has evolved but it's one of the slowest industries, I think, to adapt to new technologies and I think the reason is is because the best agents are the ones that have been doing it the longest. They have the most experience, they know the most people. I always said 90% of the business is 10% of the agents.

Speaker 2: 8:52

Oh, that's true, that's definitely true.

Speaker 1: 8:54

Yeah, and you're one of them. You're one of the good ones.

Speaker 2: 8:59

I try. Well, yeah, I mean that is so funny though You're talking about the faxes. I can remember when I started, because I started in 2002. So when I very first started in real estate, my office was about 25, 30 minutes away from where I lived. And then, of course, you're selling all over the place. By the time that scanning things into email became a thing, I could have told you where every Kinko's was and Kinko's doesn't even exist anymore. I could have told you where every Kinko's was, because I needed access to fax machines all over, all over town. I could tell you exactly where they were, because I was constantly popping in, faxing this, receiving that fax. I mean, I don't miss those days one bit.

Speaker 1: 9:44

Jackie, I worked at Kinko's. It was my first job out of college, downtown, second shift at downtown Cincinnati and yes, I would have to help people with the fax machine. They still didn't and it was. Something was always messed up. The fax wasn't connecting, the paper wasn't in there. People put it in upside down, you know. They printed it on green paper Like it was a mess. I remember that From my end working at Kinko's. It was bad and now Kinko's is better.

Speaker 2: 10:12

You probably knew lots of us realtors as we came in frazzled I got to get this out. I got a deadline.

Speaker 1: 10:18

Definitely, a few realtors came through the door there yes, that is very true. Door there yes, that is very true. But so what do you tell realtors? Okay, so new realtors right, maybe they've been in the game for a year, they haven't sold a whole lot. Do you ever recommend to them, hey, join a B&I group, but if you do that, there's probably going to already be a realtor in that group. Do you say, hey, what do you do? How do you get these people?

Speaker 2: 10:48

I'm sure these are the type of people that come to you or the newer agents and they don't know the first thing about it. They just heard it was a good way to make some extra money. Actually, I do this all the time for our brokerage. I am in charge of training our new agents. I pair them with mentors in their local offices and then I coach them once a week. We have a whole training program that I take them through for their first six transactions. And so, yes, this is the number one problem is where do I find people? So the first thing is you. You got to go through your personal database and most people don't have their contacts organized in a client relationship manager. So I help them. You know, yes, your phone. I help them try and take the things from their phone, put them into an actual system. But that's the number one place that we start. You got to start with the people who already know you and, like you, hopefully trust you. But if you know, depending on how you know them, it just depends on where they're at. In that I call it the relationship timeline. You're going to have to move them along the relationship timeline until they do know, like and trust you, and so that's where we start, then it's a matter of okay, now where do you find more people? So there's the traditional ways, and a lot of agents love to do open houses, things like that. I think the reason why an open house is such a draw for a new agent is because people walk in there and already see you as a real estate professional. Even if you've only had your license for five minutes, they see you already as the real estate authority and it's easy for you to build your authority, maintain your authority with them as a real estate professional if they meet you in that way. But there's a ton of different ways.

Speaker 2: 12:26

Bni groups are an option, but I'll tell you, I am based out of Northern Arizona and so all of my marketplaces are smaller towns and so for us BNI, there's not even such a thing in most of our towns. So that's more something that if you are in a major metro area, you're definitely going to find a good BNI group and I highly recommend getting involved with that. But if that's something that you're familiar with and you're in a smaller town like us, I started a group. In fact, unfortunately, I wish this were a better story we started a group called Networking for Change, based out of Phoenix area and that went great.

Speaker 2: 13:09

And when I moved up to Flagstaff, which is a small town in Northern Arizona, I joined a group that was kind of like it and then thought you know what? This isn't quite right. So we started a group and our first meeting was March, beginning of March 2020. So I think we met once and then whoops, all right. Then we met via Zoom a couple of times and then that was it, cause we're some of them were like I don't know if I'm ever doing business again, so so that didn't quite fly, but it's a great way to meet people, networking, getting involved with causes that you're passionate about.

Speaker 1: 13:44

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:44

Finding, you know, finding volunteer opportunities, because I'm all about. You build your relationships with people that you already have something in common with. So if you can find that common factor, then that's a great way for you to get to grow with these people.

Speaker 1: 14:02

Yeah, so I mean, if you had a, really, if you were in a sorority or a fraternity or something like that and in college, or if you went to a large high school I think I know a lot of people that kind of were in that situation so they, they got into real estate when they had their largest network, right, your network kind of shrinks once you get a family and you have kids and stuff like that. I feel like you're, you're the people you talk to and interact with get smaller and smaller and smaller. Like that. I feel like you're, you're the people you've talked to and interact with get smaller and smaller and smaller. Right, you get closer friends but less.

Speaker 1: 14:30

And when you're, when you're younger, you have a bunch of people that you know, but you don't know everybody that well, right, um, but everybody kind of has the same thing and they you know everybody's starting their career and they may be more receptive to you being a real estate agent, like you know. Oh well, great, yeah, I want to help you out. You know everybody wants to help each other out, find jobs and things like that. So it's a good time. And when you're an older person and you're trying to reestablish your career? Do you find that it's more difficult? Or you know what I'm saying? Does that seem to apply?

Speaker 2: 15:43

It does apply, and that's part of what we go through in our coaching programs, where we really start to help you see things a little bit differently. I always talk about building your business by coffee. So for me, when I was a newer agent, like I said, I got started just to represent our you know, our own business. But when I went through real estate school I found I really liked it, I really enjoyed what I was doing, and so I said you know, I think I want to do this for real, and I did. I was one of the people.

Speaker 2: 16:16

I had two small kids at home. I was a stay at home mom and then trying to build my real estate business as a side hustle. And that was primarily. What I would do then is I would get together. For me it started with playdates and I would do playdates with different people and then say, well, who do you know? Do you know another mom? And we would get together and I ended up representing a lot of young moms in the beginning, especially single moms, which was a little bit of I call it foreshadowing, because within two years of getting my real estate license, my ex-husband and I went through a divorce.

Speaker 2: 16:54

So I thought well okay, but that was kind of where that started. And then I I met with somebody at one point and I learned this, this tactic, from him. He was a financial advisor, and I got a call from him and he said, hey, I just met with so-and-so, who was somebody I knew well. And he said, yeah, I had coffee with him. And I just asked him. I said hey, you're a good person, you must know other good people. Who do you know that I need to know. And I love that tactic.

Speaker 2: 17:23

And so I started really using that in my business, because when he called me, it was great, he goes. Yeah, he just said you're a good person, I'm a good person, you know, we both have businesses, let's get together. So we did. We got together for coffee and he had sort of this little format where he said well, first I want to know about you and again, you know, leading by serving others. So he listened to me, my story, and as he's listening to what I have to say, he's going oh, I know this person that maybe I should connect you with. I know you know this resource and let me, let me send you this phone number, whatever the case was. And so then he ended it by saying hey, you know what? I really appreciate that. Let me just give you a little bit about what I do, just in case you also know somebody who you know you can connect me with, whatever.

Speaker 2: 18:10

So he gave me his little spiel and I thought that was great. And then he ended it by asking me he goes, well, you know, I met you through Greg. He said you were a good person. You clearly are, and so you know. I mean, obviously, I think that if he probably had a coffee meeting with somebody who he didn't feel was a good person, he probably just ended there and just say, hey, thanks, thanks for your time today and go about your merry way. But I really loved what he said Good people know other good people. And so then I thought, ok, well, yeah, here I know this person that you could connect. I think you guys would would hit it off, and so on and so forth. So I started doing that with my real estate business and found a lot of success with that.

Speaker 1: 18:48

Well, I mean, since we're talking about meeting people Les Brown, magic Johnson talk about like I mean, it sounds like you've shared some platforms with these guys and some other speakers too.

Speaker 2: 18:59

I have. So here's what I will tell you Les Brown, I'm a huge Les Brown fan and I I credit Les Brown's choosing your future for getting me through a really difficult time in my personal world, and that was in the kind of great recession 2008 2009 timeframe so fast forward to 2021. And I had the opportunity to personally mentor with him and I jumped on that in a heartbeat and I absolutely loved it and ended up being able to speak with him in his only live event that he did in 2021 post post COVID lockdowns his first and only live event that he did. I was one of the speakers with him and that was an incredible, incredible opportunity. But yeah, I mean also, I do speak a lot about real estate. I've been a speaker at different real estate conventions, offices, events, things like that, and so, yeah, so through that, I've had the opportunity to share the stage with some really cool people.

Speaker 2: 20:08

Magic Johnson was was a ton of fun and the cool thing with Magic Johnson is you know, when you're, when you're a speaker, they've got you in what's called a green room behind the scenes and usually it's just, you know, like a hotel room. It's set up, it's not far from stage and it's a place where you can, you know, sit down, grab a drink of water, change your shoes, whatever you got to do. And so I'm back in the green room and this is at a real estate event and the um, my mentee, one of my mentees was with me and he happened to go to this event. He is a magic Johnson fan from like I mean, this is his, this is his person that he really looks up to. So I texted him and I said hey, I'm in the green room, magic Johnson is back here. Can you, can you meet me here? He showed up the coolest thing he got to meet Magic Johnson. We took a picture with him and he was so cool because he goes.

Speaker 2: 21:06

I, magic Johnson, said I am such a believer in mentors. He said it's great You're being a mentor. He said to my mentee, mario. He said, mario, it's great you searched out a mentor and it just is the coolest thing to be able to create that introduction in that moment. So it was fun.

Speaker 1: 21:24

Wow, wow, yeah, that is awesome. Yeah, and a lot of people that are connectors that's another thing I I I see when I think of real estate agents and the people I've met in the past. They're very good connectors. They're always on the lookout for a relationship that they can build between two people. Uh, and I think that just leads to more business too, because then there's people oh hey, jackie introduced us. And then years down the road, they think, oh man, how did I meet you? We've been friends for, oh, it was Jackie. Oh, I got to sell my house. So it's like you're constantly building that network. When you build connections, you help put people together.

Speaker 3: 21:58

You kind of have to because, particularly if you get into the commercial side of it, where you're doing syndications or you're doing big commercial buildings and you're a smaller group, because the financial players have become such a big part of the market Like BlackRock and all those others that will buy up whole blocks the individual realtor or the brokerage house has no hope of competing with them. So they have to have their own network to where they can beat those guys to the punch on these properties. I mean, it used to be just like it was part of the gig. Now it's a necessity, in my opinion.

Speaker 1: 22:43

Oh yeah, well, and you're in sales, kyle, and I mean it's the same thing with what you do. I mean you're in a kind of a relationship business too, because if you're a good salesperson in so Kyle does trucking brokerage work. He doesn't necessarily do the sales, he's kind of like training the people. He's up there now, but you know, if you're a salesperson you're starting out in his business. I mean you build relationships with these guys, these truckers. They're going all over the country and if you've got a load that needs to go from here to Detroit or something and you know guys around here, over time you're going to build up that network and you're going to be able to move a lot faster and get more loads connected and all that other stuff. Is that what you run into, kyle?

Speaker 3: 23:20

That's what you're supposed to run into, but that's a dog-eat-dog world. There it's just different. You're talking about something with a. It has a low barrier to entry, Kind of like getting into real estate kind of has a low barrier to entry but being really good at it has a very high entry to high barrier to entry because anybody can come in, they find a deal and they flip a house or they move a few loads during a produce push with a carrier. But it's that year after year where you get them to do more and more loads. That's the ideal way of doing it, as you described. But it's tough because that's an industry where people are always going to the highest payer and the lowest biller. You're always trying to walk in that tightrope.

Speaker 1: 24:14

Well, it's probably like that in real estate too. I mean, you could be a high-volume agent, right, but be selling $150,000 houses and run yourself ragged. Or you could be a person of society and be in one of the nicer neighborhoods my dad's up in Sedona, by the way, like he's. He's not far from you, yeah, yeah and.

Speaker 2: 24:33

I'm kidding, I sell in Sedona.

Speaker 1: 24:35

Well, there you go. Yeah, They've got an Airbnb there. I think they got like 10 bedrooms or something. At this point he keeps adding stuff. But yeah they, he's big you know hippie guy into crystals and all that stuff, so that's, and he's some kind of shaman or something now. So he does, he does that kind of stuff. But you know, he takes people on those Red Rocks excursions and builds, you know, medicine wheels and smoked peace pipes with them and all that stuff. So they, yeah, they, it's, it's, it's more than just an Airbnb, it's an adventure.

Speaker 2: 25:01

So but yeah, he fits right in in Sedona, I guarantee it.

Speaker 1: 25:05

Boy, he's the king of Sedona. I'm telling you, walter Soaring Eagle, if you ever go to Sedona you'll probably find him floating around somewhere. He's a long hair guy, looks like he was in a band but he was just like a gypsy roadie for bands for a long time. But yeah, so he's up there and I get it. I mean, it's a beautiful part of the country, very expensive homes. You know it's a beautiful part of the country, very expensive homes. It's like an exclusive city. It's kind of tucked away a little bit but it's beautiful around there. So I mean, obviously the real estate price are going to. So you could be that kind of real estate agent where you're selling five to ten, three to five million dollar houses a year and you don't have to deal with the small little houses and do volume right and show people around a million different places If they know they want to be in Sedona or they know they want to be in Flagstaff. I mean these are the prices and there's only so much real estate you can buy.

Speaker 2: 25:55

Yeah, you know it's interesting that you say that, because I think that that is very true. In a major metro area you can choose a certain price point, a certain standard. We actually it's funny because we're so in Flagstaff. I am one of the several agents that we got together and we started what's once a month. And the joke is, for all of us that sell luxury, we're we're absolutely selling small pieces of land, we're selling manufactured homes, we're selling all of that as well, because you have to be that diverse when you're in a smaller town. And so you know that's funny that you say that, because you're absolutely right that you can put your focus there.

Speaker 2: 26:47

But I usually tell people, if you're in a smaller market, if you treat all of your clients the same, so all of my clients are going to get the same treatment. They get the luxury treatment. Every listing I have gets the professional photography, the video, the 3d tour, all the bells and whistles. We put marketing behind it and it really doesn't matter if you are, you know, whatever your price point is, if it's considered luxury or if it's considered a starter home, we're going to kind of treat that the same. And so, again, I guess it just goes back to for me. I just look at like, hey, I want to work with good people, so I don't really care to me what your price point is or what you're looking to buy or what you're looking to sell, if I'm going to enjoy working with you.

Speaker 2: 27:33

That's my biggest lesson, because over the course of time, I've definitely worked with people that I didn't enjoy and that's where it really starts to feel like work. It feels like, okay, that's it. I'm right like work. It feels like okay, that's it. I'm remember I told you. I'm like, yeah, when I retire I'll go wait tables. There are definitely days you work with difficult people. You're like, okay, I'm ready, I'm ready to retire and go to eight tables right now. But yeah, if you work with people that you get along with.

Speaker 2: 28:01

And that's why I think when you're doing a lot of different marketing, you're getting together with people. You're doing video and social media. You know you, we've all heard that cliche your vibe attracts your tribe. We've heard it a million times, but there's a lot of truth to that. So when you put out who you are into the world, you're going to attract other people who like what you have to offer and that's your best bet. That's where you're really going to do well. So a lot of people will get started with online leads and things like that. But that is really tough because you literally don't know if you're going to get somebody who's going to respect you and your time. If you're going to gel well together, you have no idea.

Speaker 1: 28:40

You don't know, and there's tons of software out there that helps you generate leads. You could put like uh, you know, I actually one of my clients is BuySide. I don't know if you know BuySide, but now they're called Percy. They changed their name Inside real estate. We do work with inside real estate too. But I mean they'll put like a home valuation tool on your website and people come in there, they'll fill out the home valuation tool and that's how you get a lead. You know, because people want to know how much our home's worth. So you could put an ad out there to your home valuation tool and it'll drive to your website and then you start collecting stuff, filling up that database of people you can call, and there's other ways they do it and it's some really complicated stuff to find leads. But you know, those personal relationships that you already have are probably the best way, like you said, to farm it first and build up that initial database that you have. But also, jackie, you're not just a realtor and a consultant for realtors. You can consult with people who are doing Airbnbs and are fixing and flipping, like you said before. What are some of the things?

Speaker 1: 29:40

And when you were coming on I really wanted to ask you about this because I've noticed some cities have begun to outlaw Airbnbs because there's not enough housing out there. Right, we didn't build a lot after the financial crisis. Right, you had 2008, 2009. Everybody all these developers thought the next generation didn't want to own houses, they weren't going to have kids, they were all going to live in these apartments with these great amenities. So they started building these multifamily apartments and there's not enough single family housing.

Speaker 1: 30:08

Then you had corporate Zillow, you had BlackRock, you had all these other guys. American Homes for Rent started scooping up all these single family properties when interest rates were low and renting them out and jacking the rent up. So now even rent's expensive. So the legislators see this in these cities like Dallas was one of them that I heard and they're like look, no more Palm Springs. Palm Springs is having problems. So they're like no more. Over 20% of the housing stock can't be Airbnb. So what do you do? I mean, it was such a lucrative thing for a while for individual investors. Do you see it still being a problem with regulation?

Speaker 2: 30:48

Or do you see kind of light at the end of the tunnel here for people? I love this topic so much. So let me tell you, first and foremost, sedona since your, your dad, is in Sedona that is definitely one municipality who is trying to do everything they can to stop vacation rental properties. So there you. Here's what you need to know properties. So there you. Here's what you need to know. First and foremost, if you are thinking you want to get into the short term rental ownership game, you've got to work with a real estate professional in the area that you are looking who knows what they're talking about. This is actually what I specialize in, and so, for me, I love getting connected with people who this is what they want to do, because I can help them say, listen, I'll get calls all the time. Oh, I want to. I want to get a house in Sedona, I want to use it as a vacation rental, and I'm like you may want to consider Cottonwood or Clarkdale, which is, you know, a 20 minute drive. You still can see the red rocks, but they're much more friendly to the short-term rental experience than Sedona is. So you need to make sure you're working with somebody who's very well aware, stays up to date. And the other thing is, too, is you have to be involved with that local municipality, wherever it is. You do purchase because laws are changing all the time. You do purchase because laws are changing all the time.

Speaker 2: 32:11

Different different regulations are getting passed, things like that. For example, here in Arizona, we had a governor, governor Ducey, who passed a law that and it was in 2016, 2017, the state law became you cannot, as a municipality, put any restrictions on property rights and how people use their, their homes, and at the time, we did have towns like Sedona, flagstaff, scottsdale. They did not like vacation rentals. So this law comes into effect and people start going crazy because they're like, yes, money is cheap, number one and number two, there's no restrictions against it. And so the only restriction you had to worry about was a homeowners association, and if the HOA was friendly to vacation rentals, then great. If not, then that was okay. You just ignore them and go look somewhere else. But now there's been a little, so then, of course, you know the pendulum always swings one direction or the other, so then it was a little bit of a free for all, and you know a lot of people.

Speaker 2: 33:15

Here's the thing if you're going to own a vacation rental, you have to be a responsible vacation owner. You cannot vacation rental owner, you cannot just be like, okay, I am looking for the biggest house possible, I am just going to pack it with lots and lots of beds. And now what you've done is you've become the party house, and so the people who are renting this house, they're out going crazy. You're not putting any restrictions on it. And I kind of laugh and say this is, these are the vacation rental owners that we can all say well, this is why we can't have nice things, because they've ruined it, because now the neighbors are mad and the neighbors are starting to say listen, I didn't want to live next to a hotel and a party house.

Speaker 2: 33:58

I wanted to have you know, I have the right to quiet enjoyment of my property, and so now you've got a lot of you know back and forth that way. So I think it's also important to know which communities are more friendly to vacation rentals than other. So all of this is super important if you're getting started and you're taking a look. But also, here's the key secret sauce Lots of gurus were getting into the market over the last, you know three to five years telling you how you could create a vacation rental empire. Okay, do you remember when I was younger? I remember it was the late night infomercial and they would teach you how to buy tax liens Carlton Sheets, was that it? Yes, do you remember?

Speaker 2: 34:45

And then there was the tax liens, and here's how you can buy real estate with no money down. It was all that kind of stuff. Well, nowadays it's the vacation rental, and I'm not saying that there aren't some good ones out there who have some good advice. I'm not saying that. But I will say for the most part, like, please do not watch YouTube videos, the quote unquote gurus who tell you how to do a short-term rental and think that that's how it's done. You've got to make sure you're working with a local real estate professional who understands the ins and outs. They know what neighborhoods are friendly to short-term rentals. They know which municipalities are in the process of passing laws. Maybe the laws don't exist yet, but they know who's fighting to try and get these things passed. So that's the most important thing. But then the second most important thing is you've got to have an exit strategy, because, no matter what the laws are doing today, if they shift, you've got to have a way of okay, what am I going to do with this property?

Speaker 2: 35:42

So a lot of times I'm seeing people take their short-term rentals and turn them into mid-term rentals and turn them into mid-term rentals. So mid-term rental is anything between 30 days to six months. That's considered mid-term, and the people who are renting these most of the time are the traveling nurses and things of that nature, so you're able to get a good dollar for them. What's great is you don't have to worry about the turnover and doing quite as much marketing and management for those, so that's not a bad way to go. And then, of course, you can turn it into a long-term rental 12 months I have yet to see anywhere that's put a restriction against anything.

Speaker 2: 36:23

Long like 12 months is usually that timeframe where the restrictions will start. And so you know, you've got to have all of that worked out and you've got to know your numbers in terms of okay, if, if things are shifting, is it a good time to sell? Should I put this on the market and and get out now go into a different marketplace, whatever the case may be? So I think that's what is really important with short-term rentals is not just saying I'm going to get in and I'm going to put these really cute furniture in place and I'm going to make sure it's got a really nice coffee maker and maybe like a little pool table so people can have fun, and then I'm going to kill it. There's so much more to it than that.

Speaker 1: 37:05

Yeah, yeah, you got to. And I, you know, I like, I like bringing it into perspective. Everybody thinks like you've got super optimistic. I'm always optimistic, kyle will tell you, I'm always optimistic. I think everything's going to work out. You know, this is just who. I am Right.

Speaker 1: 37:22

And I've got my brother who's the ultimate pessimist, and he will be like I don't know, you know, and my wife's somewhere in the middle. She's just kind of like, well, don't get too much, and you know, don't get too crazy with it, and so she's kind of brings me down to earth a little bit too. But you know, when I see stuff like this, I just automatically think I'll make it work, I'll figure it out right, it's my personality type. If something comes up, I'll dress. You know, that's just how I operate. Some people are pessimists and never get started on anything. So I think you kind of, with stuff like this, you're making a big investment and you kind of have to be somewhere in the middle, you have to be smart about it.

Speaker 1: 38:00

And I talk about, you know, some of these places, like we spoke before the show, these places in Miami. Some of these buildings have a hotel license. There's a building, same developer, called Nativo in Austin. They have a building hotel license right In an area in a city that people want to go to. They've got high occupancy rates.

Speaker 1: 38:21

They'll manage the building for you so you don't have to be in, you know, northern Arizona if you're not from Northern Arizona but working with the right type of people even my place in Miami, I mean the building offers, you know, to manage these things for 25%. But I could probably go find a realtor that'll do it for 10. Right, but am I going to be dealing with two or three realtors, like maybe the first one's like, oh, I can do it, no big deal, you know it doesn't work out. Then another one doesn't work out, then I'm like I ended up going back to the 25% thing anyway, you know. So you got to be smart and you got to do your research and find people that actually know what they're doing and read reviews, probably right.

Speaker 2: 38:59

Yes, all of that is such great advice and, in fact, like before we started we were talking, I've got this listing right now in Flagstaff and it's a large home and then it has a detached guest house and the people who lived in this home the current owners. They lived in the primary home and then use the detached guest house as a vacation rental. Last year alone, it made $43,000, which is fantastic for a little tiny two bedroom, one bath, and so for me, I look at this and go, man, if you are really looking for an opportunity, you can buy something like that where, okay, I've got my space and then I'm going to. It's the same mortgage payment. So I'm going to use a portion of my space and, of course, a detached guest house is the best case scenario, but I'm going to do that to get started. Or maybe you have a basement you can lock off or maybe I mean, there's a lot of different ways that you can look at that but that's a really great way to get started because you've got to live somewhere anyway. So that's number one.

Speaker 2: 40:04

Another thing that I love trying to help people do is if you wanna buy a vacation home in a vacation destination, so this is for you, it's for your personal use. Now let's show you how you can take your vacation home and use it as a short-term rental when you're not in residence, so that you can help offset the cost. So now, it's not about, oh, I'm trying to make a million bucks. You're saying I'm trying to make a million bucks. You're saying I'm going to live a lifestyle I've always dreamed about and I'm just finding a way that I can afford to do it more realistically, because I'm offsetting the cost with my income. And so those are.

Speaker 2: 40:38

Those are two really great ways that, if you want to get started, that's how you do it, because then there's some more intrinsic value that's going on there. Because then there's some more intrinsic value that's going on there. And if municipalities shut you down or if something happens, you can duck and weave a lot easier than if you own, you know, eight, eight places and you're, you know, trying to rent them all out, and all of a sudden they're all on the same city and rules change, like if you were in Dallas, that would have been a really hard to hit, um, you know. And then other things like honestly, as long as we're talking about this, I know there's a lot of gurus out there who will talk to you about um rental, um arbitrage I was going to call it sabotage Arbitrage.

Speaker 1: 41:18

Retail sabotage.

Speaker 2: 41:20

Yeah, honestly.

Speaker 1: 41:21

That's happening in cities right now all over the country.

Speaker 2: 41:24

So I'm just saying so here's what I want to say about that. When you hear the words rental arbitrage, please run, run fast. Things that can truly ruin your life with just one bad, one bad guest and things can really go haywire. So I truly don't recommend that. I know a lot of people say, oh well, that's a great way, I'm just going to rent it and then I'm going to sublet it out. But that's actually illegal in a lot of places. And um, and then even where you do get the landlord's permission and it is legal, a lot of times you can run into an insurance nightmare.

Speaker 2: 42:04

So, just yeah, like if you hear that, if you're, there's anything I can impart on you. If this is the side hustle you're looking for, don't start that way, no.

Speaker 1: 42:14

Well, and it's so wild that people are so open about it on places like YouTube and TikTok and Instagram reels and places like that, like it was it, you know what, and it's. It's crazy because this is. These are the type of things people get messed up on because they sound like they could work, like they, they, they would work. But the problem is people aren't telling their landlords that they're doing it. Yep, and the landlords this was early on on, too, with the Airbnb thing, because most landlords weren't thinking Airbnb. They were thinking I need to get a long-term tenant in there and I need to. And then these guys were calling up the landlord. If they didn't even tell the landlord, they were like, look, we're going to do short-term rental on this and you know that it's going to get cleaned every day. It's going to be in better shape than if you had a long term tenant. And you know, I've rented property for 25 years and I've had some nightmare, nightmare tenants, right. And if you hear that from someone, oh, I'm going to rent it for five years, I'm going to put I'm going to do short term rentals, but it's going to get cleaned every night like a hotel and all that. To you. That sounds like you know, that sounds great you know, but you've got that going on, you've got.

Speaker 1: 43:24

What is the other thing now too? Oh, man, sub two, sub two, where they're they're buying people's mortgages from them, essentially. So what they're doing is, yeah, they're they're saying, hey, let me assume your mortgage, or, or the owner continues to pay the mortgage, right, but the person that goes in there, puts a renter in there, pays them the mortgage and a little bit of money on top of that. So that's like the new thing too. So it's like people are hunting for people with like low interest rate homes that want to. They don't want to sell their house because they got such a low interest rate, but they're looking to move into a bigger place. They don't want to sell that house because the interest rate's great, but now they're moving into a bigger place with a higher interest rate. So these sub two guys come in and they say, hey, look, why don't you just let us put a tenant in here? We'll deal with everything and we'll just we'll pay you a little bit on top here.

Speaker 2: 44:19

We'll deal with everything and we'll just we'll pay you a little bit on top. That is the biggest nightmare, which not to mention that, unless so an FHA or a VA loan, those are generally assumable, but other than that, if you've got a conventional loan anywhere over the last 20 years, there is a due on sale clause in there. So, if so, this is a huge risk. If you are thinking about doing this, please consult with a real estate attorney, Because what's happening is they're coming in and they're they're they're quote unquote assuming the mortgage, but truly what's happening is the is the owner, like you said, is still making the mortgage payment. They're making a payment to them.

Speaker 2: 45:02

If the paperwork isn't exactly right and above board, you are going to find that if the mortgage company gets wind of this, you're gonna have a boom due on sale clause. Where are you gonna get that money? Cause your asset is now tied up, and the problem is that a lot of these, cause I've gotten offers on these for different up, and the problem is that a lot of these cause I've I've gotten offers on these for my, for different sellers, and I would say, probably over the last like six months, is when this has really started to come on and the problem becomes. Well, okay, but as part of this, this, the people who are coming in and doing these sub twos are having the the seller, they're still going through a purchase, so the seller is deeding the property over to the, so it's all such a bad idea.

Speaker 3: 45:47

Yeah, yeah I could.

Speaker 2: 45:48

I could go on and on. I'll stop Like we could do a whole show on how people are trying to, you know, scam the system.

Speaker 1: 45:57

but oh yeah, oh yeah, that's that's the thing. And there's so many, there's so many things with mortgages. You got the reverse mortgage for the older folks. You got these sub two things. You've got a lot of wholesalers calling you constantly. I've got rental property, so I get them.

Speaker 1: 46:12

All the time Mailbox is full of people wanting to buy my house for next to nothing. They'll send you those fake checks with the number on it and you're like, wow, this is $60,000. I write them back and I say, well, what you know what's? What kind of cap rate are you looking for? Because I, you know, I'm, I could sell it to you with a seven and a half cap. And they don't want to do that. Right. And they're like, oh, you're an investor and I know you, you know seven and a half cap. If you're calling me from New York or or San Francisco or something, a seven and a half caps, great, like why would you take it? A seven and a half cap? But that means my property sells for $50,000 more than than market. So, but they don't want to do that ever.

Speaker 2: 46:53

So no, no, cause they want to. They. They want to come in and knock your knees out from underneath you.

Speaker 1: 47:00

They want to come into Cincinnati and make a. No, I was not born yesterday.

Speaker 1: 47:03

Yeah, yeah. They want to come in here and buy these things at a 10 or 11, 12 cap and it's just like nope, I got seven and a half is good enough, but they don't want to do it and I might as well just hold on to it anyway. I know they're going to say no, so but yeah, but cashflow is great. You know, I mean, if you got a rental property, if you got a house at a low interest rate, I mean you know you're going to be moving into something that is probably going to cost you more money at this point.

Speaker 1: 47:27

If you had an extra kid, or maybe you decide to get a dog and you don't have a fence in your current house and you want to move into something new, you know you're going to be spending seven and a half anywhere from like what? Six and a half to maybe seven and a half, depending on your credit score at this point, depending on the place you go to, if you go to a broker or something for a mortgage. So it really depends on what you're going to get. And it's like, man, you might be paying three and a half 4% right now and now you're paying a whole lot more. It's almost like do I want to sell that asset or do I just want to rent that out and then make a little extra money on it and use that to pay this extra that I have on my new house?

Speaker 2: 48:03

Yeah, yeah, I mean there's so much. Yeah, there's a lot of that going on right now where people kind of feel like they're they're stuck where they're at because they do have that low mortgage rate, and anywhere they go because the mortgage rate is so much higher, they're like, oh, I can't really get what I had for this, so I may as well stay put. But you know, this is part of what we're helping people with all the time right now is to answer that, you know, answer that puzzle and see like, okay, well, let's look at your specific situation and see what makes sense. So you know, there's in any market again, I've been doing this for 22 years and I've seen the ups and the downs and in any market there's always some opportunity and there's always some creative ways. You know creative legal, ethical ways Not the stuff we were talking about earlier, but, yeah, I mean, there's ways that you can accomplish your goals and still move on, move forward and, you know, get out relatively unharmed.

Speaker 2: 49:03

And the other thing, too, is, historically speaking, while, yes, if we're comparing your mortgage rate from four years ago to the mortgage rate of today, it's doubled or more, but historically speaking, we're still below 8% and that's a good rate. It's still. It's still a decent rate. It's still a decent cost for money. My husband's in real estate. He's been doing it for 30 years and he got started when rates were at 18% and I've never even seen anything like that in my career.

Speaker 2: 49:31

So you know it is. It's a matter of keeping things into perspective and also knowing again your what's your exit strategy, which is a question you have to ask yourself again. You're what's your exit strategy, which is a question you have to ask yourself. Even if you're looking for a primary home, if you're looking to buy today but you are looking for a place that you're going to stay for 10, 15, 20 years, it probably will still make sense for you right now. If you're looking to buy today but you want to, you know, maybe move in another two years and okay, let's talk. Maybe it doesn't make as much sense, but anyway, there's lots of different situations.

Speaker 1: 50:04

Well, talk a little bit about where people can find you if they're looking to find a consultant. What are some of the books? I mean you've written books. I mean you've got so much stuff going on. Tell people how they can reach out to you, jackie.

Speaker 2: 50:17

So the best way to find me is if you just go to the URL steps to strength all spelled out, steps to strengthcom you're going to find that'll just lean you to my link tree. It's going to connect you with all the things I do. It's got links to the books I've written. I did co-write a book with Les Brown. That was exciting. That was my first book to be an international bestseller. So that was a fun, a fun title to own. But I laughed.

Speaker 2: 50:43

I, my husband and I went out to dinner to celebrate that and I was like, okay, now I've got the title of international bestseller that in five bucks buys me a cup of coffee. But it's cool. I mean it was a dream I had as a kid, so that's really exciting. But I've written a children's book called A Time to Fly. I've got a couple other books out there. So all that stuff you're going to connect with. I do a YouTube channel with my husband called the Empty Nester Life. You can connect with it there. So I mean there's, you'll find all the all the fun stuff I do there.

Speaker 1: 51:11

I love it, jackie. This has been awesome. I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on and sharing all this knowledge with people. I feel like you know people are going to be ready to get to be a realtor, like you've broken down some barriers, like probably some mental barriers that people have and now all they got to do is reach out to you, especially if they're in the Arizona area or anywhere around there New Mexico, arizona, california, like all those areas. I mean you probably run around and do a bunch of seminars around those areas, right? You?

Speaker 2: 51:39

probably run around and do a bunch of seminars around those areas, right I?

Speaker 3: 51:46

do seminars all over the country, especially a lot of the like you know.

Speaker 2: 51:48

Zoom things that we I'm speaking in my slippers. I'm wearing slippers but I'm speaking to thousands of people. It's so much fun. But I mean honestly like yes, you can find me there. I do coaching on a national level. I do a coaching program for relational real estate, just really working with agents on how to build your business to get it to a point where it is 90% referral-based or more. I know that's the sweet spot for most agents, where they want to be. I help you get there.

Speaker 1: 52:17

Yeah, jackie, thanks so much for being on the show. Guys, check Jackie's link tree out and reach out to her as soon as possible.

Speaker 2: 52:26

Thanks, jackie, adam, thank you so much for having me and thank Kyle for me as well.

Speaker 1: 52:31

Oh, I will have a good one.

Speaker 2: 52:33

Thanks, you too.

Speaker 1: 52:35

Thanks for joining us on this week's episode of Side Hustle City. Well, you've heard from our guests, now let's hear from you. Join our community on Facebook, side Hustle City. It's a group where people share ideas, share their inspirational stories and motivate each other to be successful and turn their side hustle into their main hustle. We'll see you there and we'll see you next week on the show. Thank you.